Below are the interviews I conducted for this feature article about the clash between clubs and teams.

NOTE: The lengthy comment by Ben Arians was not included in the article, and the interview with Ali Deines was over the phone so I’ll spare you my chicken scratch notes.

Comment: Ben Arians, AWS Coach

PS: Ben Arians is a coach for Alaska Winter Stars and has at the same time been an assistant coach at West Anchorage High School, where some of the athletes also trained with Alaska Winter Stars and others with APU. He sent the following to me in an email, and was nice enough to allow me to re-print it here.

Clubs and High Schools: Can’t we all just get along?

Goodness, where to begin? I think the first thing to make clear is that xc skiing (and running, for that matter) are individual sports, as opposed to the team sports that Lisa Keller pointed out like football, basketball and soccer. It is absolutely understandable that there needs to be a strong cohesion between linemates on a football team or shiftmates in hockey, because rythmn and timing are so important in those sports. By unbendingly putting the team before the individual athlete in sports like skiing and running, you are fighting what frequently draws high level athletes to these sports, i.e. emphasis on individual effort without having to rely on others for your own success. This is selfish behavior on the part of the coach, putting their team before the individual athletes. I would also add that there are some pretty “high” level skiers that didn’t run cross-country that have seen big rewards in terms of college scholarships and selection for international competition. Using Kikkan Randall as an example is completely off base, as I think we can agree Kikkan is a very special talent, and that there are not that many people in a generation that have her abilities. Saying “Well, Kikkan did it” and expecting that to prove anything is ridiculous. That said, Kikkan never won a state championship in skiing. Maybe she could have if she had focused her efforts more on ski specificity during the fall instead of on running? Regardless, she has shown that her focus on skiing has reaped great rewards.

In Alaska, we don’t have specific rules set by the Alaska Scholastic Activities Assoc. (a subsidiary of the NCAA, I believe) regarding dual participation for skiing and running, only the 10 practice minimum before the athlete is allowed to race in a HS event. The rest of the rules regarding participation are left up to the individual program. This has led to a fair amount of friction between programs, schools and coaches. This makes it hard, because it is a small community, and it’s nice to get along with your colleagues. I have had experience coaching both high school and club programs, teams that I have coached have won state championships for high school, as well as club trophies at Junior Olympics, so I think I can speak from a relatively experienced background when I say that the individual effort of the juniors I have coached is pretty high, and that without that individual drive, i.e. not team-spirit oriented, they would not have been able to achieve such high levels. Team spirit has its time and place, but at the end of the day, the team can’t help you get up Stairway To Heaven or Heartbreak Hill, it has to come from within.
At one point while coaching HS, a girl who was the top runner in the state came out for the ski team her Freshman and Sophomore years. She told me that she needed to keep up with her running workouts throughout the ski season because she needed to be in good shape for track season in the spring. Of course I agreed, and we worked out a schedule whereby she could train with her running club several days during the week, and then would train with the ski team the other days. She raced on the Varsity team because she deserved to be there. Later she decided to focus on running only her Jr and Sr. years, and based on the fact she received a full-ride running scholarship to a DI university, that was the right decision for her to make. The lesson here is this: if you choose to make a big deal out of something, it will be a big deal. If you don’t, it won’t. Flexible like the willow tree, not rigid like the oak, grasshopper!
Patrick mentions Jan Buron several times in his posts, that he coaches the AWS club and also is the head coach at Service High school, and is also my boss with AWS. There are usually several members of the Service team that are members of the APU or ANR club teams, and I have not heard of any examples of friction there. Jan acknowledges that a club coach who has worked with an athlete throughout the previous spring, summer and fall probably knows the athlete better and therefore is probably better equipped to work with the athlete, thereby bolstering the athlete’s potential for success. He is confident enough in his own abilities as a coach to see this not as a slam on his coaching ability, but as an athlete seeking extra help that he might not be as capable of supplying as someone else. Instead of making a negative out of an athlete not being at practice, use that as an opportunity to work more with other team members and get them faster.

Remember, attention to a sport like skiing or running by bodies like MIAA, ASAA and NCAA is usually a negative. They really don’t care about sports like skiing, they just want them to sit down, shut up and not make any problems. If they feel they need to step in and enact rigid participation requirements to quiet the squeaky wheel, they will, and with results that most of us that are interested in athlete development won’t like. Pursuing athletic excellence is a selfish endeavor in and of itself, and the greatest athletes, ones that inspire us with their performances, are at heart fairly selfish people: they have to be to focus so much of their time on making themselves faster, stronger, quicker and better. People that are that individually motivated don’t often get that much out of a “lets do it for the team” atmosphere, and trying to force them into that mold isn’t going to be good for anybody. That said, I don’t let anyone dictate terms to me no matter how good they are. Communication, mutual respect, and mutual give and take are of paramount importance in letting dual participation in HS and Clubs work.

Interview: Erik Flora, APUNSC Program Director

The development pipeline is a very important discussion right now in US skiing. A young skier has many options. Here in Anchorage juniors have the option to train and race with High School or with club. Which is the right one? The “right” program depends on the athletes goals. If the programs goals are inline with the athletes goals then there is success! Our goal at APU is to promote skiing in the community and develop athletes capable of being competitive on the World Cup. The goal of the High School system, as I understand, is to promote participation in school sports. Our training seasons are greatly different, the high school team practices 3-4 months, while the clubs train 11-12 months a year. I see both the club and the high school with an important role, the HS get a lot of kids on skis and the clubs have the capacity to help the kids to reach their goals of National/International racing. Right now at APU we have 4 main development programs: Devo’s 12-14 with the goal is to encourage a passion for skiing and endurance sport, Jr’s 14-18 Learning to train and compete, Elite Development 17-22 learning about high level training and competition, and Elite 22+ becoming experts at competition/training. We are work with our athletes year round to help them pursue their goals. A good example is Kikkan Randall. Kikkan skied both high school and club systems. At 16 she joined APU where she was able to get the year round coaching and she also worked with East High School. Like many of her competitors on the world cup, Kikkan has had year round support with coaching for nearly 10 years. I believe this is critical to her successes. So, to answer your question, there is an important place for both High School and Club skiing. In Anchorage High School is a great vehicle to get kids involved and to participate in school sports. If an athlete does plan on going further than High School competition, it is important to find a club/coach that they can work with over a long term, ie 6-10 years.

Interview: Eric Strabel, APU Elite Team Coach.

PS: If we want our kids to be training more and earlier in their lives, then can the average high school team support the hours and quality?

ES: It’s possible, but very difficult. If the coaches are knowledgeable and can devote their time to actually coaching, the rest is up to the athlete.

PS: If not, then how early would juniors be required to make a commitment that would effectively render a high school team’s training obsolete?

ES: It depends on a lot on the high school team’s training. It could be close, with the athlete supplimenting it, or it could be obsolete by their second season.

PS: Is it unreasonable to expect club coaches to coordinate training plans with high school coaches when athletes insist on being in both programs?

ES: As long as the high school coaches don’t actively inhibit a lot of hard ski training then there’s no reason the two can’t work well together.

PS: Why do you think dedicated athletes stay on their high school teams while also training with a club on the side? Does a high school team provide something that our elite clubs do not? Social pressure? Social support? American tradition?

ES: There’s definitely a lot of motivation to represent your school in sports. And probably mostly, that success in school sports is the most obvious way for the admiration of your peers at that age.

PS: Extra Credit. If dedicated athletes give 100% commitment to clubs before they finish high school, can we define a new role for the high school ski team? Is it a good recruiting tool?

ES: Given the presence of elite clubs, I think high school skiing is most useful for boosting moderate participation. So much of what high school skiing is, is defined by the condition of the incoming class. Most have not skied much and are still learning the basics. And coaches, usually professional in something other than skiing, are overwhelmed by the numbers of a no-cut sport, and can hardly afford to coach a few months a year. As in-effective a system this is for world class development, it’s perfect for most of the participants, because for them, that development train had long left the station and they’d rather not sacrifice other interests anyways. But still, to showcase skiing as (hopefully) a simple winter sport for having fun on skis to so many at any point in their lives is invaluable for the sport. The conflict lies between this moderate participation driven system, and competitively driven skiers who have been told, truthfully, how much more participation is necessary to be competitive when the former actively inhibits the latter.

Interview: Pete Leonard, FXC program Director
Pat-

Last night, this morning… it’s all the same right?

First off, I’d say it doesn’t have to be a clash, and if we are predisposed to framing it in that context, well, then it’s going to be tough to avoid, isn’t it? I think the bottom line is that if we as coaches (club and school) approach this with the wrong mindset then it will not happen. First off I think we have to be working toward the same goal, which I think we are if we agree we are trying to provide the best opportunity for personal growth for our athletes that we can. In my mind, part of this is stimulating them with increasing physical and competitive challenges as they adapt to previous ones, and that means you can not have a one size fits all program. As a coach you must incorporate a level of flexibility to continue to challenge your most experienced athletes. For our sport that means a HS athlete would need to be exposed to higher level competitions and year-round coaching and training within there first couple of years of HS.

Now there are a few hurdles that need to be overcome to make this happen. First, administrators that make short-sighted, blanket rules or who do not allow athletes to pursue the opportunities for personal excellence or fail to support the ski programs with adequate access to whatever local training facilities are available (30 min – 1 hr a day a couple days a week doesn’t cut it), often make the most insurmountable obstacle, as they are frequently insulated from this fringe sport by layer upon layer of bureaucracy.

Second, as coaches we can not let our egos get in the way. We have to realize that athletes will benefit from being exposed to diverse opinions, even if they sometimes (and often just seemingly) conflict with our own. Teaching skiers that there is one-way to the top is foolish and allowing them to experiment with different approaches to the sport will allow them to think for themselves as they get older. Instead of bad-mouthing or ignoring one another, these coaches should seek to engage each other with professionalism and collegiality. Working together and engaging one another with an open mind will only lead to the betterment of the athletes and the skiing community.

A sports program should be athlete-centered, coach-driven, and administratively supported. When the administration is running the show or we as coaches forget who we are working for (the athletes) then we run into trouble. If the program is centered on the athletes, then those athletes should be fulfilling their goals within sport at whatever level they want to choose and everyone should be happy, right?

I’ll answer the rest of your questions within the text of your previous email (so I stay on subject and don’t miss any points)

PS: If we want our kids to be training more and earlier in their lives, then can the average high school team support the hours and quality?

PL: I think it is possible. I have seen that it is possible. Of course there are ‘horror stories’ of high schools that only have about 30 min for skiing after bus rides and accessing equipment are taken into considerations, and athletes will often have to do some supplemental training to their high school program to get better. But if they are trying to be above average, shouldn’t they be expected to do a little supplemental training anyway?

Within a high school program it should not be difficult to train 12+ hours a week (averaging near two hours a day six days a week, do a little additional running or strength training or doubles on the weekend and that’s 600 hours a year. That’s certainly enough to be world class as a high school age skier.)

PS: If not, then how early would juniors be required to make a commitment that would effectively render a high school team’s training obsolete?

I only see this if they are racing more of a national schedule than a regional one (or if, again, there are administrative hurdles). If the athlete is traveling extensively (out of region) for things like world juniors, us nationals, super tours, etc., then I think it could well become too much for them to do that and meet requirements of a high school schedule. However, that only applies to a few skiers nationally every few years.

PS: Is it unreasonable to expect club coaches to coordinate training plans with high school coaches when athletes insist on being in both programs?

PL: No. Both parties should be interested in this, because sharing of ideas in a respectful situation will only make both of them better (not to mention improve the quality of the overall ski community).

PS: Why do you think dedicated athletes stay on their high school teams while also training with a club on the side? Does a high school team provide something that our elite clubs do not? Social pressure? Social support? American tradition?

As long as administrative hurdles do not prevent those athletes from getting the training in they need then by all means they should be a part of their high school program. The high school programs often provide easy/cheap access to skiing (cheap/free trail passes, bussing to ski trails or grooming at schools). They also offer an excellent relatively inexpensive way for athletes to get started in the sport. In the past 10 years I can think of at least a couple of top level junior skiers (JO top 3) who started XC skiing when they got to high school – it is certainly not too late to identify talent and develop it. Timing is certainly critical at that point (wait a couple years and it maybe too late). However, having older, more established skiers on the team exposes a broad base of younger skiers to what is possible within the sport and can make the transition into a year-round club program that much simpler – in many ways the path is already defined for them, it is simply a matter of taking it.

If you have follow-up questions, just shoot me a line. I’ve got to get some actual work done here in the next couple of hours too, so I’m going to stop here.

Pete

Interview: Don Haering, APU Elite Devo Team Member

PS: If we want our kids to be training more and earlier in their lives, then can the average high school team support the hours and quality?

DH: Honestly, not really. At least not in the Anchorage public school system. Skiers are made in the off-season when high school skiing is not in session. When the high school season does roll around, in many ways it just makes training schedules much more difficult.

Skiers tend to be motivated individuals who succeed in school as well as athletics. High school practice is often a waste of time to student athletes who already are balancing homework loads against training hours and recovery. Of course the amount of time depends somewhat on the school and its proximity to the ski trails. I know its possible to train over 600 hours as a high school skier (I did), but the system makes it harder than it needs to be. It really comes down to individual motivation and it CAN be done, but the high school system makes it harder and probably does hinder development somewhat.

PS: If not, then how early would juniors be required to make a commitment that would effectively render a high school team’s training obsolete?

DH: Well, its a little difficult for me to answer that one. I started skiing competitively as a J1 and it’s possible that I will never reach my full potential because of that. I think I’ll be ok because I was generally active and athletic when I was younger, but a stronger training background would increase my chances of success.

My freshman year I was not a committed athlete, but I did fairly well for myself and it was suggested by several people in the ski community that I should join a club. That in itself is worth mentioning. It was assumed that if I was going to develop my potential, it would be in a CLUB setting. I often hear people say that clubs wouldn’t have an athlete base to help develop if not for high school skiing. I don’t know if thats true or not, but if you’re really serious about being a competitive skier, you probably need to be involved with a club or training pretty hard on your own BEFORE you reach high school.

It remains to be seen whether or not I began too late. I’m definitely behind the curve and I’m trying like hell to catch up. I recently heard that at SMS the J2’s are training 500+ hours every year. That sounds about right to me, but I doubt there’s more than a handful of J2 skiers who do it nationwide. I think the most important thing is to understand that that is what it takes and that they need to keep progressing every year. How they do that can be somewhat flexible, and if high school skiing fits into the equation, it can really be a lot of fun. But every year as they train more and more, high school puts a greater and greater strain on the athlete.

PS: Is it unreasonable to expect club coaches to coordinate training plans with high school coaches when athletes insist on being in both programs?

DH: Not at all. Part of being a coach is having a dialogue with the athlete to determine what is needed to reach their goals. When that athlete has another coach who works with them full time, it seems obvious that there should be some communication between coaches and that one coach may have to defer to the other if they have separate ideas. When it comes to deciding which coach’s plan will be used, there’s a simple solution: Let the athlete choose.

I think it’s possible that some high school coaches feel that clubs are undermining their authority. To me, thats nonsense. Authority in coaching comes from an athletes belief in the coach’s experience and ability. I’ve never had a club coach tell me I’m REQUIRED to do anything. If I follow their plan, it’s because I think it will work. In my experience, high school coaches like to assert their authority and threaten consequences for those who disobey. What kind of coaching strategy is that? It’s not like they’re dealing with a C team kid who’s making up excuses to get out of a workout.

A really good first step in working things out would be for high school coaches to discuss training with the athletes and their club coaches and get a sense of what’s going on with the athlete’s training so they can understand their goals and what needs to happen to achieve them. Talking about training should be fun! I don’t know why high school coaches don’t all seem to like it, but whether they like it or not there needs to be some effort on their part to understand the big picture and long term goals. I’m completely baffled as to why high school coaches are so inflexible about their training plans and feel the need to have all the athletes doing exactly the same thing under their direct command. I guess I always assume that a coach is a coach because they love skiing and thus would be psyched to chat it up about training plans, technique models, energy systems, recovery techniques, etc, and work together with the athlete to come up with awesome plans and new ideas. The dedicated athletes should be the most fun to coach in my opinion, so its really kind of sad that things are the way they are.

PS: Why do you think dedicated athletes stay on their high school teams while also training with a club on the side? Does a high school team provide something that our elite clubs do not? Social pressure? Social support? American tradition?

I think it varies. I stayed on my high school team last year even though I didn’t actually attend classes at my high school. I was a member of the APU Early Honors program, a program at APU which allows seniors to take college classes for dual credit in high school and college but still participate in high school activities such as athletics and prom (although I missed prom for Distance Nationals). This allowed me to train in the morning with the APU elite team and in the afternoon with my high school team. My main reason for staying with my high school team was that we had a pretty strong group of guys and we really wanted to win the relay at State Championships. That relay was the most fun racing experience of my life (we were second) and I’m glad I didn’t miss it. However, I think some athletes do feel peer pressure to remain on their high school team. They feel like they’re letting people down if they don’t ski, even if they don’t really want to.

PS: Extra Credit. If dedicated athletes give 100% commitment to clubs before they finish high school, can we define a new role for the high school ski team? Is it a good recruiting tool?

DH: Like I said, I think it would be ideal for athletes to join clubs before high school, but yes, high school skiing does help clubs recruit.

I think high school skiing is a good race series for younger athletes and a fun social experience for just about anyone. I think if high school coaches are flexible and involved and willing to work with dedicated athletes and give them a certain level of autonomy then the current system can work. However, in some situations, I just think it needs to be recognized that the best thing for some athletes (mainly upperclassmen) is to move on and focus on a higher level of racing. It just comes down to the individual, their parents and their coaches to decide when and if the split needs to happen.

High school skiing for me had a lot of ups and downs, but I’m going to remember the good times. Skiing is one of the most important things in my life now and I probably wouldn’t have it if I hadn’t been on the high school ski team my freshman year.

No comments